In an interview with the BBC program "100 Women", the first lady of Ukraine talked about the kind of peace that all Ukrainians are waiting for, how the role of Ukrainian women is changing, and what it's like to be the wife of the country's leader during the war.
"Blackout is not the worst thing for us"
Almost a year has passed since Russian troops invaded your country. How are you?
- Fortunately, it is not yet a year, because every day of this influx, every month is very difficult for the whole of Ukraine, for all Ukrainians, for everyone. To the question "how are you?" we generally answer: "we hold on." This is exactly what we have been doing all these nine months. We hold on.
It's been a tough year, and this winter looks set to be even tougher with power outages, shortages and continued fighting. What do you hear from Ukrainians? Are they worried that the end of the war may not be soon?
- You know, we have had so many trials during these months, so many terrible trials, we have seen so many victims, so much destruction that, to be honest, a blackout is not the worst thing that can happen to us. We get inventive, we try to do all the things that are important to do with light. Then, when there is light, we do not postpone anything for later.
I can share my impressions. Recently, literally last week, a social survey ended, Ukrainians were asked how much longer they are willing to endure in such conditions, without light, without heat.
And Ukrainians, in the majority, more than 90% of the respondents, answered that they are ready to endure it for two or three years, if they see the prospect of our membership in the EU. They want to be equal in this European family. We know for what - for the sake of victory, for the sake of a sense of dignity, for the sake of the fact that this democratic family awaits us and we want to be in it on an equal basis with others. Ukrainians are ready to tolerate it. We are optimistic about these things.
Two or three years...
I think we all hope it won't. We are all very hopeful that everything will end. You know, it's easy to run a marathon when you know how many kilometers. Unfortunately, we do not know how many kilometers, we have to calculate our forces. It is difficult. Sometimes it is very difficult, but then there are some new emotions that help us hold on.
War brings big changes and small changes. Everyone's life turned upside down. When was the last time you, your husband, the president, your 18-year-old daughter and your nine-year-old son had dinner together?
— I will not name the exact date, but it is very rare now. The four of us hardly see each other, because I live separately with the children, my husband lives at work. When we have such very short moments, it is very little, it is not enough for the children. We missed it, most of all, probably, we missed such simple things - to sit, regardless of the time, as much as we want, to talk about all the big and small things that happen in the family. Of course, we talk about it, but it's only a phone, a video call. We are constantly in touch. Just having this time as much as you want - there is no such thing. Unfortunately.
In the first weeks of the Russian invasion, your husband said that he was the number one target and his family was the number two target for the Russians. Do you still feel that you are in danger?
- I can honestly admit that I tried not to think about it, because then you can fall to the bottom of despair and never get up from it. I tried not to think about it at all. I felt and still feel the responsibility that my family and I should be safe, not to be exposed to unnecessary risks, due to the fact that this is a danger to the president.
Not even because this is my husband and my beloved person, but because this is the pressure that can be exerted on the president of the state during the war. This cannot be allowed, so all the security measures that apply to me, I now have to follow, it has been like that since day one and continues now. I really want these tight security measures to be reduced someday, and we could feel more free, move around the city, go to the cinema or the theater again. But it is not available to me now.
I can say that I am only at home and in the office, nowhere else. And still in the car while I travel between these two points. Sometimes there are trips abroad, there are trips to Ukraine. But these are all isolated cases. Our lives are now strictly regulated by security measures, but I never thought about fear.
"I don't get pleasure from public speaking"
You once said, "I prefer to stay behind the scenes." And here is the first lady of Ukraine on the world stage. How difficult was it to take on a role you didn't want?
- I can say that I did not choose this, just as I did not choose to be the first lady from the beginning. But we are not always given the roles we choose. Unfortunately, it just happens that way. When I speak in public, I always speak from the heart and that's why it's easy for me. I do not manipulate. I'm not playing a role. I only say things that I believe. Therefore, in this sense it is easy for me. And apparently, this peace comes with time. After all, my first public speeches were full of stress and nervousness. I was preparing, I needed two days to learn the text by heart. Now everything is much easier.
When you do something many times, you become more confident in it. I can't even now say that I get pleasure from public speaking. No way, no. Last week I spoke in front of an audience of several thousand people at the Web Summit in Lisbon, when you go on stage and realize that you will be seen and heard - there were eleven thousand people. On the one hand, it must be scary, on the other hand, I understand that it doesn't matter to me now. Perhaps even an audience of three people will be more difficult than an audience of several thousand. So it must have changed, and I want it to be my new skill that I'll be using later.
This year, the BBC's 100 Women list focused on the progress of women. One aspect of this is that more women are taking on leadership roles in government. Have you discovered a strength in yourself this year that you didn't even know you had?
— I think you can think you don't have something until a certain point, until you really need it. And it turns out that you had it. And therefore, if we talk about what we are afraid of or not afraid of, we must sometimes take a step out of our comfort zone. This is personal growth. All coaches talk about it. You can talk about it, read books. But it is more difficult to practice.
I can say that I don't know how much of a leader I am. If my speeches inspire - maybe. If I inspire someone to act, great. But I have no such goal. If this is another effect of my activity, I would be happy.
Your husband, the president, said that you must be stronger than you thought, and that war really brings out things in people that they never expected. Is he right?
- I don't know, I can't answer. Apparently. Well, that is, we will all come out of this war stronger, because trials in any sense harden you. Would I like that? No. I would like to continue to be weak and fragile. I do not think that I have discovered any such features that I did not know. It's just that some skills become so necessary for you that you develop them in yourself.
I think that all Ukrainians will become stronger because of this war. And I sincerely believe in this thing that psychologists call post-traumatic growth. I really want to believe that it exists, that we can become better through all these trials, the whole society.
Do you and the president disagree about what role you should play?
- Well, to be honest, he never dictates any of the roles to me, and in this situation, he never encourages me to do something. He can advise me, or say "it would be nice for you to do it." But yes, I can argue. I can say, "I'm afraid, I don't want to." So, for example, we talked about the speech in Congress, it was, honestly.
In the US Congress in July?
— Yes, in the United States. First, this is a precedent, and I understood that it could cause different reactions. Second, it is Congress. I was afraid. I can tell you honestly, because it is a huge responsibility. But on the other hand, I understood that this mission is very important, and it is important now for Ukraine, and now I have a chance to fulfill it.
The president did not have such a chance. He can't leave the country now. And when you have so much responsibility from all sides, the first thing you want to say is "No, I'm afraid, I'll never do it." But he knows how not to persuade me, but to encourage me. He said that I will succeed. And he helped me prepare because I was really worried about how it would be, what I should say. He was really helpful and supportive, and it was easier with that support. But at any moment I could say "no, I don't want to". Perhaps responsibility really worked, and this chance could have been missed.
"I asked for a weapon to save myself"
When you spoke to the US Congress, you were the first foreign first lady to receive such a privilege. You spoke of pain for the children of Ukraine, but you also called for help with weapons. Have you crossed the line into politics?
- Well, first of all, I knew that I would cross the line. And my concern was also related to this. But I wouldn't say that I entered the political plane. It was not politics. That was really what I had to say, I was not asking for guns to attack, I was asking for guns to save, to really keep our children from being killed in their homes. And that's what I want for myself. I asked for this weapon for myself.
I fear every day that the next missile attack will be fatal. And I am not immune from it just like all other Ukrainians. And my children, and my parents and my husband's parents, and all my friends and relatives. That's exactly what I asked for this weapon. Therefore, I would not say that I entered the political sphere. Unfortunately, such decisions are made at the political level. That's why I talked to the people who make these decisions, who have this power. But I spoke to them on a personal level, as I already said, as a mother, as a daughter, as a wife.
So you did it in the US Congress, and then you did it again and again. You did it in Lisbon at the Web Summit. Do you think that your words affect the fact that Ukraine receives weapons and aid?
I really hope so.
What do you say about it?
- They usually promise support, no one has said yet, you know, we don't want to. I see that when they can't help, they say, it's a complicated story, it's a complicated situation, but we will try. This is diplomacy, this is a normal feature of people who do this work. I thought that Congress heard me. And it seems to me that others hear me. I really want to believe it.
"Ukraine is mistakenly considered patriarchal"
If you look at how Ukraine was described before the war, in the documents of the UN and other aid agencies, Ukrainian society is usually called traditional, patriarchal, the role of a woman in it is determined by her gender. Do you think that your social and even political role helps to change stereotypes?
— I don't know how much my public role helps. I hope that it has a positive effect on the role of women in Ukraine. But I can say that even before the full-scale invasion, we were not as patriarchal as these respectable organizations describe. We did a lot before February 24 to strengthen the role of women in society.
That is, gender equality is an important topic in Ukraine, and it has been so for a long time. We can be proud of the fact that, for example, in wages, the gender gap between men and women in Ukraine has decreased from 20% to 13% in the last two years before the full-scale invasion. On average in Europe, it is at the level of 18%. That is, we are gradually taking the right steps on the way to an equal society.
I think you know that the role of women in the war is now very big in Ukraine. We have significantly increased the number of female military personnel. 40 women are much more than before the war. Many of these women came to war as volunteers, it was their choice.
Historically, it seems to me, Ukraine is mistakenly considered a patriarchal society, it is worth, for example, to remember our past, the times of the Cossacks. Cossacks spent most of the year in Sich, this is a purely male pack. They lived there according to their own laws, and women at that time stayed at home with their children. They were the owners of the household, they were the main ones, and when the men, the warriors, returned home, the woman no longer gave them her role. She was the head of the family.
After the return of the husband from the war, such role models are preserved in most Ukrainian families - the woman plays the main role. This has happened historically, and I think that we will only maintain these positions. After the end of this war, I see all the signs of positive changes in this, because even during the war, we continue to fight against gender-based and family violence. It would seem that this is a time when there are other challenges, but we do not leave work with this.
Literally yesterday, there was a big meeting in the Cabinet of Ministers on this issue. Institutions are being developed, mobile teams are working, hotlines are working. We understand that there will be many challenges, because society will experience and is already experiencing very difficult emotionally difficult times. And unfortunately, in most cases, the woman is the victim and victim, especially in cases of domestic violence. Therefore, everything that happens in society gives me optimism. I am optimistic about the role of women, including after the war.
You talk about the rise of domestic violence, but also about new opportunities for women who are opening up new roles. We have seen in history that during the First and Second World Wars, women took on new roles and this accelerated the progress of women. What do you think will be the long-term impact of this war?
- First of all, now a woman has taken on even more responsibility than in peacetime. Ukrainian society is now divided. For those who remained, who are here, they are military personnel, and female doctors, and female teachers, all of whom cannot go because they have to work because their work is important, and at the same time that they are working for victory , they also, like every woman, take care of children, take care of relatives. That is why the burden on a woman has increased. It is clear.
On the other hand, we have eight million temporarily forced migrants who are now abroad, and they are mostly women and children. They also have a very difficult role. That is, you are taking responsibility, already as a father and as a mother, you are going to an unfamiliar country. In most of them, those who are there, they work and take care of children and relatives, and try to somehow integrate in an unfamiliar society. That is, the loads are very large, but I still believe that these tests and loads make everyone stronger. A woman who has experienced this will never take a step back. And I am sure that our inner self-confidence grows with these problems as well.
And again, I repeat, all the processes taking place in society, even at the highest level, indicate that the role of women will no longer decline in Ukraine. In general, we now have what I would call a feminist government. We have many women ministers, we have many women diplomats, ambassadors have become much more than before. The men who work with them, they feel their influence, their role and respect them. I don't think we have such a patriarchal approach anymore. Therefore, this trend is very strong, I do not believe that it will decline. Kitchen-children-church is not for our society anymore.
"75% of Ukrainians feel emotional stress and exhaustion"
And yet, despite the new strength you see in society, you often talk about the dangers of mental health. You said that if there is no effort at the national level, then when peace comes, there may be problems. How do you see it?
- It is so. We are already seeing the complex consequences of everything we are going through. And it is for this reason that I initiated the creation of a national program of mental health and psychosocial support. Because, once again, social surveys say that 75% of Ukrainians feel emotional stress and exhaustion. And this can be the beginning of the development of various problems with mental health.
Perhaps not, but in many cases, unfortunately, it does. Therefore, I really hope that we will now implement this program in an integrated manner. And I am sure that we are going the right way, because we not only have a large number of specialists in Ukraine, but also have a base on which we can start this work. We attract foreign experience, this is exactly the field in which I work, and specialists to train our own. We try to take models of such structures in Belgium or in the United States or in Israel.
The purpose of this is to reduce the effects of this terrible invasion. There is a big problem in the fact that Ukrainians are not used to seeking help from psychologists. This is not in the habits of Ukrainians. We are used to endure, we are used to not paying attention to our emotional state. And now this is one of the directions of our work. Apparently, these are still remnants of the Soviet Union. Because during Soviet times, many of the older generation got used to the fact that everything with the prefix "psycho" is scary. People remember thousands of forcibly "cured" dissidents, poets, writers, actors, whom the Soviet authorities placed in such terrible institutions, where they were allegedly treated forcibly.
Such emotional wounds exist in our society. We now have to turn this angle of attention in a completely different direction, to give people the opportunity to understand that this help is not only necessary, but that it is safe, confidential, and not complicated. One of the tasks is to make this path to help simple, to find an entry point so that the system finds the person rather than the person looking for the system.
You have become very political. The President has just published a new book of speeches. And in a thousand speeches, he emphasizes the following words: before we talked about peace, now we talk about victory. Does the First Lady say that too?
— I want to note right away that he did not publish this. Someone published his speeches. He didn't do that. But nevertheless. It seems to me that for all Ukrainians the word "peace" is now equal to the word "victory", because we all understand that without our victory, unfortunately, there will be no peace in our country. Precisely because such is our enemy, such are his intentions, such are the methods of waging war. This may be a sham peace and short-lived, unfortunately, so we need victory.
"Everyone who is now at the front knows what they are fighting for"
What does victory mean to you? On the website of the Elena Zelenska Foundation, it is said that you know exactly what victory means.
— For us, victory means a return to normal life, first of all. Because we are not living a normal life now. Sometimes it seems that we have paused, put all dreams, all desires, all plans on hold. We are all just waiting to win.
Are you concerned that Ukraine may have to give up part of its land?
— This worries all Ukrainians. We believe that we cannot betray those who are currently in the occupied territories. We cannot throw them away. People there are waiting for liberation. This means that we will betray those who have already died in this war. This will mean that they died for nothing. It is immoral. That's why everyone treats it like that. This is not a political position of the president or the government. This is the position of Ukrainians, expressed in particular by the president.
You often say you speak like a mother. What would you say to Russian mothers?
- This is a very difficult question. I have already been asked about it several times. I don't know what words to find. I tried to think about it several times. Especially when it first started, I thought someone might hear something. Now we see that no one hears anything. Therefore, inventing different speeches for those who will not hear you is a waste of time. These are fantasies.
They will never hear us because they are locked in their information space, and they are locked there for a reason. This is necessary for their leadership so that people do not leave this information vacuum. Then it will be a manageable crowd. And unfortunately, everyone in this country is like that, and mothers too. Unfortunately, mothers of soldiers who are fighting in our country are also like that.
Until now, you were married to an actor-comedian, a TV star. But then you became the president's wife. You know he is a war leader. How has your relationship changed?
— For some reason, it seems to me that they have not changed. Because being a wife is always being a wife. We are lucky that he and I are not just a couple. I can safely say that we are best friends. And that's why receiving and giving support in such a situation is easy, it's natural. It doesn't require any effort from you. Fortunately, this is what happened to us.
It seems to me that no one would want to go through these times in our situation. But we have what we have, as they say in Ukraine. I hope that it will only harden us. Because we really rarely see each other, but all the more we have something to tell each other when we meet.
And how are your children doing?
- This is a test for them as well. It seems to me that the last months have been very difficult for my daughter. She finished school and entered university. And in general, this is an age when it is difficult for a girl, especially, difficult in such conditions, in which she now has to be, from the point of view of security as well.
So at first we were nervous about finishing school, about all the exams she had to take. Successfully passed. Then she was nervous about how she would enter the university. Finally she entered. And she was very worried about how she would be received at the university. She was worried because she understood that everyone would know who her father was.
And I am very happy that this tension in her fell literally in the first days, and she found friends, and somehow she started to study so inspired. I'm even surprised how hard she tries, she likes it. I am happy for her. That is, we had a very tense period for several months, it would have been so even if it was not related to the war, but the war is still escalating. The emotional pressure is four times greater, and finally we understood that it was not for nothing, and she went through this difficult period.
It is probably more difficult for the son now than two years ago, he is growing up and he understands all the challenges facing his father.
Your son is now nine years old.
- Before, he was just proud of him. You know, when Volodymyr became the president, he won the election, the son was the happiest person in our family, because he simply perceived it as a father - the champion, that is, the best, won, and did not think about what would come after that.
He didn't know that after that, dad would almost never be home, which would make it harder to communicate with him. Now he felt it all, understood it. And, apart from the fact that we all want the war to end as soon as possible, I think they are also waiting for work, affairs and the war to let their dad go home to his family more.
My Ukrainian colleagues say that Olena Zelenska of 2019 is not Olena Zelenska of 2022. Are they right?
- Perhaps. I think that if you compared Elena Zelenska in 2019 and Elena Zelenska in 2003, they would also be different people. But in 2019, I just entered this river.
Which you didn't want to enter, you told your husband: don't do it.
- Well, yes, it was, but she came in. And here it is necessary to either sail or go back. And I have already swam so far that there is no point in turning back. It seems to me that it has changed. I only hope that I have changed for the better. I really hope so.
Source: BBC News
