Polish President Andrzej Duda said that if Ukraine does not receive weapons from its allies in time, then Russia can win the war. The Polish leader said this in an interview for Le Figaro.
The Polish president believes that the dictator of the Russian Federation is not successful at the front, but the death of tens of thousands of fallen occupiers will not stop him. According to the President of Poland, "Russia is obsessed with human lives."
From the beginning of this war, Poland massively supported Ukraine. How to explain this outbreak?
I am very proud of my compatriots. They were the first to offer help to Ukrainians at the border to receive refugees fleeing the bombs. It was really amazing, spontaneous, because, I stress, we didn't have to create any refugee camp. My compatriots are well aware of our Ukrainian neighbors, who in recent years have become known as a hardworking and reliable nation. Another reason is that the Poles have not forgotten what the Russian occupation is, what the Russian invasion is, and how the Russian army behaves. His arrival means death, cruelty, merciless struggle.
Did you expect an attack from Russia?
We knew that Russia would attack. Therefore, on February 23, we decided to go to Kyiv with the President of Lithuania Gitanas Nauseda to demonstrate our unity. So we were there literally hours before the invasion. We met with President Volodymyr Zelensky, who was assured of support. It was very important and very moving for me.
President Zelensky was sure that the attack would happen. He told me memorable words: not to run away, so that we would never see each other again. He also told me: if Putin thinks we're going to give up, he's sorely mistaken. Ukraine will resist to the last drop of blood.
Has your relationship with him deepened?
I must say that this is a really special relationship, and since the beginning of the war, in my opinion, it has become stronger. I respect him very much, admire him as a president, because he is ready to give his life for Ukraine. Our friendship began a few weeks before the invasion, in the Vistula, in the residence of the President of the Republic of Poland, when he came to see me. One evening we had a meeting, very sincere, very personal. He explained to me how he became president, how he sees his mission and how he sees himself. It brought us closer. The memories still give me strong feelings, which maybe one day I should put down on paper, because it is very important from a historical point of view.
If you had to define what Zelensky is, what would you say?
He is a very intelligent man, determined to act for the good of his country according to a value system that seems very close to mine. He risked his entire future by taking this position because he saw that Ukraine was bad and wanted to change the situation. I saw him for the first time in Brussels and said that although he has no political experience, he has a chance to change a lot because he is honest and wants to act. That's how it piqued my curiosity. Due to the complete absence of political cynicism.
You went with him in January to lay wreaths at the historic cemetery in Lviv, which usually causes tension in relations between Poles and Ukrainians. Does war help to cope with the demons of the past?
During the visit to Lviv together with the President of Ukraine, we visited the Lychakiv cemetery. We paid tribute and honored the memory of Polish soldiers who died for Poland's independence more than 100 years ago during the defense of Lviv. It is worth noting that even before this visit, the mayor of Lviv decided to open historical statues of lions at this cemetery, something that the Polish side had been longing for for many years. For us, these lions symbolize the courage and heroism of Polish soldiers of that time.
The decision to open these statues was a gesture towards the Poles, and for me it was symbolic that we were accompanied by the mayor of Lviv. We also paid tribute to Ukrainian heroes who died for the Motherland in the ongoing war. We honored the memory of all dead Poles and Ukrainians, which shows how much has happened recently. This means that, despite the difficult past, after 70-80 years we realize today that good neighborly relations can be established. Either we stand together in this crucial hour and support each other, or we lose our freedom. Poles understand this very well.
Are the close relations you described with Ukraine, as well as your excellent relations with the Baltic and Eastern European countries, not reviving the "Three Seas" region, [meaning] the former Polish-Lithuanian union close to you?
Central Europe. warned against Vladimir Putin for years. In 2008, when Russia attacked Georgia, the President of Poland, Lech Kaczyński, together with the leaders of Ukraine and the Baltic countries, went to Tbilisi. Before a crowd of Georgians gathered in the center of the city, he gave memorable words, warning that if Russia does not stop at Georgia, then: "tomorrow, perhaps the Baltic countries, Ukraine, and then maybe my country, Poland."
But are we not today in a period of historical change, when the new leadership of Poland emerges as a military power that, for example, forced the Germans to send Leopards?
In Poland, we understand that Russian imperialism is a fact. Excuse me, but the last time you saw Russian soldiers in Paris was after Napoleon retreated and the Russians left Poland in 1993! Our perception is radically different. The perspective of the Baltic countries is even worse, because during the times of the Soviet republics, they experienced real hell. While Europe was celebrating the victory over Hitler, we in Poland found ourselves under another occupation under the leadership of Stalin's army. To this day, we are looking for the bodies of Polish soldiers killed by the communist and Soviet authorities in Poland. Because of this common experience, the countries of Eastern Europe stand in solidarity with Moscow.
We are together, but we are also in NATO. If we think about Poland, it is true that in Eastern Europe we are the largest country with the largest population. What is very important, our territory is a strategic territory that leads to the Baltic countries through the Suval Corridor. If the Suval corridor, the 65 km Polish-Lithuanian border between Belarus and Russia's Kaliningrad region, is not secured, the Baltic states will be cut off from the rest of NATO. We take this very seriously, both we and our Baltic partners. I constantly repeat to the presidents of the Baltic countries: as much as we could be together a few centuries ago, we could resist Russia as much.
You emphasized that Western Europe did not perceive the threat from Russia in the same way, because it did not know the second totalitarianism of the XNUMXth century. Still, didn't you feel that the current threat was beginning to be better understood, especially in Paris and Berlin?
It is difficult for me to answer this question unequivocally. Until recently, we had big problems with Germany regarding the energy market, where Russia was allowed to dominate. There remains a very important problem in the form of two Russia-Germany gas pipelines. Russia wanted to make Europe dependent on its gas to achieve its political goals through blackmail. These gas pipelines bypass the countries of Central Europe, and this is not accidental. We talked about it many times. We have also said that this issue cannot be considered only as an economic calculation. Because Gazprom is not a company like others: it is the military arm of Moscow.
Do you have a grudge against the Germans for this blindness?
Yes, of course, I said that to Chancellor Merkel once loudly and forcefully, and it caused a roar when she triumphantly announced the opening of the Nord Stream II gas pipeline. I should have made my disapproval very clear. For 6 years I tried to convince people to stop construction because of the serious threat to Poland, Slovakia and Ukraine. No effect.
However, did you feel that the strategic revolution that Germany was heralding signaled a decisive change of course?
I hope that among the Germans, who are generally rational, rationalism will prevail in this matter as well. Until now, the desire for economic gain prevailed. We got the impression that they underestimated this problem, and for them it was not the point of view of the Europeans that was important, but the need to find a convenient way to supply gas for their industry, regardless of the geopolitical costs and the price that others pay for protection. Putin wanted to put pressure on Europe. That is why we in Poland have carefully diversified the sources of gas supply.
However, was it necessary in the complex context of the war to raise the issue of German military reparations after the destruction of the Second World War?
The truth is that the Germans did nothing to pay reparations after World War II. All Polish society agrees to reparations. There is no family in Poland whose member was not killed by the Germans. There is no such place where there is no suffering . We rebuilt Poland after the war on our own. Other countries, such as Greece, still want reparations. Why should the Polish state, which was the biggest victim of the war, lose 6 million of its citizens, whose capital was completely destroyed, the state with the greatest losses and the greatest destruction will get nothing?
France and Poland have experienced a period of intense tension, mainly due to the dialogue between President Macron and Putin. Are these worries a thing of the past for you?
A year ago I visited Emmanuel Macron and we had a very successful discussion. There is no conflict between us. If our view of Russia is different, it is probably because everyone's experience is completely different. When Emmanuel Macron talks about Putin, he may think that it is possible to come to an agreement, but I believe that it is impossible to come to an agreement with Putin. I believe that the only thing that can be done to stop Russia is to support Ukraine.
You have developed a key strategic relationship with the United States. Is this a guarantee of safety for you?
We did everything to join NATO, precisely in order to receive the guarantee of Article 5 of the Treaty. It's not just about words. Today, thanks to NATO's increased presence on the eastern flank, almost 10 US military personnel are present on our soil. Poland is expanding its defense capabilities. We buy weapons. In 000, we will spend more than 2023% of GDP on defense. This is twice as much as expected from NATO allies. Today we are building common security, one for all, all for one.
Can you imagine a possible Russian attack on Poland?
Please do not forget that a Russian attack on Poland will be a Russian attack on NATO. When the United States was attacked in 2001, all allies came to the side of the Americans to fight the terrorists. We believe that if an attack were to occur on any NATO country, the response would be the same: swift and decisive.
According to the survey, 45% of Republican members of Congress are in favor of territorial concessions to Russia in the name of ending the war. Are you worried about this isolationism?
As for territorial decisions, only Ukrainians can decide these issues, because it is about their territory! If someone still wants to give the territory to Russia as a concession, let them give theirs! Let's respect the Ukrainians who are fighting for the Motherland. I don't think there is any other opinion among American patriots. Arguing is normal. The United States remains a democracy with diverse voices rising. This is their right. But I am sure that the honest people who run Washington will make responsible decisions. This is clear from the current decisions of the American Congress. American aid is the biggest of all.
Much is said about Putin, but does the Russian elite seem to have succumbed to a collective imperial psychosis?
Nothing has changed since the tsarist times. It was the same under communism, only the ideology was different. Common to all generations is the Great Russian mentality, imperialism or colonialism in Russian - many countries of Central Europe and Central Asia were colonized by Moscow.
Should we help Putin's opponents prepare a political plan for Russia in the event of the fall of the regime?
Poland has 50 years of experience in fighting Russian imperialism without using weapons. After 1980, and despite the martial law, ten million Poles thanks to "Solidarity" managed to defeat communism without violence. Because of the very strong action of the society, supported by the West.
I don't know if it is possible in Russia, but it is possible in Belarus! This can happen in Russia as well, and I think that Vladimir Putin is afraid of it. Therefore, he does not recruit residents of Moscow or St. Petersburg, but men from districts located in the interior of Russia. I think that if Putin recruited the children of oligarchs for the war, his days would be numbered!
Is he weakened?
Yes, I think so, mainly because he didn't win the war as promised. But unfortunately, I do not share the opinion of those who believe that the death of tens of thousands of dead soldiers will stop him. Russia is indifferent to human life.
Why are Poles so divided? Has the war finally brought you together?
Why are Americans divided? What about French and English? Such is the nature of democracy. Poles tend to be divided because they have freedom of speech and the right to differ in their opinions. Russians do not share! On a more serious note, I wish these differences were smaller, but there are significant differences in perception. It is important that democracy continues. But the language is sometimes too brutal. At the end of the day, this is just a debate, nothing more. Therefore, we are not much different from other democratic countries. But there is one thing we all agree on. This is a security issue. Almost the entire Polish society supports Ukrainians.
Can the Russians still win the war?
Yes, they can, if Ukraine does not receive help very urgently. They don't have modern military infrastructure, but they have people! If we don't send military equipment to Ukraine in the coming weeks, Putin can win. He can win and we don't know where he will stop.
The interview was conducted in Warsaw by Laure Mandeville.
