On the eve of 2022, the head of the Office of the President Andrey Yermak, the closest associate of President Volodymyr Zelenskyi, one of the three most influential people in the country, gave an interview "Focus" magazine. ElitExpert provides the most important fragments of the conversation.
Support for the West or indifference
— The impression is created that the Western partners have politely but clearly distanced themselves from real assistance to Ukraine: we are not even told approximate terms of joining NATO, Germany has not sold weapons, the USA has lifted sanctions against Nord Stream-2. Why does this happen?
— This is a false impression that someone is deliberately imposing on our people. Let's find out what's really going on.
And in reality, we see that during this year, the concentration of support for Ukraine by Western partners has acquired an unprecedented character, and the frequency of our communication at the most radically different levels has increased. Ukraine did not have such a level of interaction with all Western partners in the entire history of the restoration of its independence.
Today, dialogue with us takes place on a permanent basis, actions and positions are coordinated, consultations are held with all leading world leaders. Cooperation with the USA, especially after the visit of our president at the end of August, is at an unprecedentedly high level. This is noticeable even in terms of the volume of military aid to Ukraine, in terms of how much it has increased compared to previous years in the defense budget of our country.
They say that this is a concession to Ukraine so that it does not react so sharply to the fact that in the same budget the sanctions against Nord Stream 2 and 35 persons close to Putin disappeared?
— The aid budget for Ukraine has been increased. We received Javelins and other military equipment. In a conversation with the president of Ukraine, the American president said that they would provide all necessary military assistance so that Ukraine could repel any attack on its territory. Joseph Biden is one of the US presidents who has done and continues to do the most for Ukraine.
We have a huge program of military aid from the West. Great Britain is currently participating in the construction of our fleet. With this country, we are implementing a project to develop our naval forces worth 1,7 billion pounds sterling. We are expanding our cooperation with Turkey. It all started with the supply of bayraktars, and now their production has already been launched in Ukraine. When they say that these are Turkish drones, yes, we got them from Turkey, but it is important to note that the engines for these drones are produced in our country. With France, the size of joint programs reaches €1,3 billion. They are cooperating with Ukraine today, in fact, as with a strategic partner.
Still, why did sanctions disappear from the defense budget?
— If we are talking about the decision of the Biden administration not to impose sanctions against the management company Nord Stream AG, then we need to consider the whole picture. At the price of this decision, transatlantic unity was restored — but was it done at the expense of Ukraine? Definitely not: the current German government demands that Nord Stream 2 meet the standards of the Third Energy Package, demands the separation of the pipeline operator and the gas owner. Certification of the project has been postponed and may not be completed even in the spring. That is, on the one hand, we get time. On the other hand, Germany is now dictating Russia's conditions. At the same time, the Vice-Chancellor and Minister of Economy of the Federal Republic of Germany, Robert Habek, called "SP-2" a mistake from a geopolitical point of view and threatened to stop the project in the event of an expansion of the Russian invasion of Ukraine.
The American defense budget, even without SP-2, turned out to be more than convincing. It, in particular, envisages a significant increase in European deterrence initiatives aimed at supporting Ukraine. This is $300 million for the expenses of our armed forces - and this does not include an additional $60 million. You saw how quickly we already received additional supplies of American military aid. What do you think is more important for deterring the aggressor — a serious strengthening of our army or sanctions against a certain number of specific people?
Or take the draft bipartisan resolution in support of Ukraine's independence that was submitted to the Senate the other day for consideration. There, along with the condemnation of Russia's actions, we are talking about providing us with additional military aid to strengthen our defense capabilities.
Moreover, senators from the two parties agreed to put to a vote the issue of sanctions against the Nord Stream-2 gas pipeline. And such voting can take place already in January.
I want to emphasize once again: we constantly coordinate our actions with American partners. For example, I personally often contact Jacob Sullivan, the national security adviser to the US president, and we have developed a very trusting relationship. Moreover, the principle "Nothing about Ukraine without Ukraine" is relevant today for cooperation with all our Western partners.
In the latest documents published by the Russian side, their view of European security can be traced. But if you look at the comments of our Western colleagues, it is clear that the issue of NATO is exclusively the issue of Ukraine and the members of the Alliance. Russia has no right to influence this in any way. I categorically do not agree that someone can influence the position of our country. We recently returned from Brussels, where a huge number of meetings took place, and all our colleagues have a common position. Any issues of European security simply cannot be considered without Ukraine.
Of course, we continue to rely on ourselves. Building a strong modern army is the task of Ukraine. And we are doing it and will vigorously continue.
Relations with Putin
There was information that Zelensky and Putin may meet at the opening of the Winter Olympics in Beijing on February 4. Are there any such plans?
— The President has said many times that he is ready for such a meeting. When and where it will take place is still an open question. Negotiations with Russia are ongoing, we communicate within the framework of the Normandy format. As you know, Dmitry Kozak is a political adviser to the Russian leader in the Normandy format. We also periodically hold consultations on issues that are discussed in the TCG.
Zelensky said that he had personally called Putin - the answer was silence. When was the last time there was a request to talk?
— Our president never calls a place where he is not sure that they are waiting for his call and are ready to answer him. There was only one contact request this year. I no longer remember why the conversation did not take place. Therefore, as soon as it is certain that the president of the Russian Federation is ready to talk and there is a subject for conversation, it will take place.
How often do you talk to Dmitry Kozak?
— We talked a week ago, and we plan to contact again this week. He and I talk about what is happening in TCG, we discuss exactly the initiatives of Ukraine that I told you about.
Are there any ideas on how to call Russia to a direct dialogue?
— The end of the war, the desire for peace should be the main motivation of this meeting. As the President of Ukraine said in his message to the parliament, in order to solve this major problem for the entire country today, it is necessary to speak directly with Russia and its leader. The position of Ukraine is very clear. We are ready to fulfill obligations not taken by us - the Minsk Agreements. There are many questions about these documents, but they are signed on behalf of our state, and we, as a responsible government, are ready to implement them. I repeat, there are controversial issues in the documents, there are some provisions formulated in such a way that the parties interpret them differently. Therefore, Ukraine offers and will offer ways out of the situation, the main thing is that there is a desire on that side.
The head of the Russian Foreign Ministry, Sergey Lavrov, said that if Ukraine adopts a law on the transitional period, then Moscow will consider that Kyiv has withdrawn from the Minsk agreements. Maybe this is just a way out of the situation?
— It is not Russia's business to pass any laws to the Parliament of Ukraine. We are not going to leave Minsk today, so we do not react to constant manipulations around this issue. We have a clear position. Based on the Minsk agreements, we offer solutions.
It is enough for Russia to show weapons at the border, and everyone starts talking to Putin more often than to the Ukrainian president.
- I absolutely do not agree with you. They talk to the president of Ukraine almost as often as to the leader of the Russian Federation. This has a positive effect on the ongoing processes, because during this communication the interests of our state are defended. As I have already said, we constantly mutually coordinate positions with our Western partners.
Formula for Donbass
Volodymyr Zelenskyy once again announced the referendum on Donbas - under what conditions will it be held?
— The issue of the referendum is not discussed now. Volodymyr Zelensky noted that he, as a president who professes the principle of democracy, believes that if a question arises in society that requires the opinion of the entire people of Ukraine to be recorded, then such referendums should be held. The President said that he does not rule out holding a referendum. But we are not talking about it yet.
"Cooperation with the USA, especially after the visit of our president to America, which took place at the end of August, is at an unprecedentedly high level"
As for the peace plan, there are several options, including the one proposed a few months ago by Germany and France — these are the so-called clusters. All peace plans, including the road map, must be based on the Minsk agreements. The first line in them is the date, 2015, in any case, today a road map is needed on the basis of this document, considering that it is almost 2022. There are different interpretations, while a single agreed document does not exist, but we do not stop looking for different options.
Is there a risk that Ukraine will be led to the implementation of the Minsk agreements or the "Steinmeier formula"?
— We are an independent country with a sense of self-respect. No one will impose anything on us - at least under President Zelensky - contrary to the interests of Ukraine.
As for the "Steinmeier formula", it was indeed agreed upon at the Paris summit, and I see nothing wrong with it. The question is that this is one of the elements, it cannot exist separately from the overall plan of ending the war, returning our territories and people. I draw your attention to the fact that the key point in this formula is that the legitimacy of the elections is confirmed by the OSCE.
There is a so-called Copenhagen document, which establishes the principles of democratic elections. That. the elections must be held completely under the control of the Ukrainian authorities, with the participation of all Ukrainian parties, mass media and international observers, and the law enforcement officers of Ukraine must provide security. There cannot be any foreign fighters, let alone foreign regular troops. And, of course, the border at the time of the elections should already be controlled by the government of the state that conducts the elections. Otherwise, how to ensure safety?
And this means that in this case, the implementation of the clause on the border written in the Minsk Protocol would lead to the fact that the OSCE would not be able to recognize these elections as legitimate. And there are still many such collisions. But that's what negotiations are for, to find a way out.
Your functions are often duplicated with the Ministry of Foreign Affairs. How do you share responsibilities with them?
— We have a wonderful relationship with Dmitry Kulebo, I believe that he is a professional who is highly respected in the world. The volume of work at the international level is so huge that there is enough for everyone. For a long time, our country was not represented at the proper level. I have two deputies who deal with foreign policy here, in the Office. To be honest, I don't have enough hands, even when we are all involved in the work. We are becoming more and more active in the international arena, because Volodymyr Zelenskyi sets the task for our diplomats to persistently move towards full-fledged subjectivity and a proactive position of Ukraine in international relations.
System resistance
Ukraine joined the sanctions against Belarus after the arrest of a Belarusian opposition figure. Our airlines have suffered real losses, they can blackmail us with electricity supplies, and Lukashenko wants to recognize Crimea as Russian. Maybe it would be cheaper to "express concern", as our Western partners do?
— It's not just about the economy, but about valuables. Until a certain time, we had very good relations with Belarus. Moreover, even today, we consider the Belarusian people to be fraternal. But after the well-known events, we could not stand aside and not react. We really hope that the situation will change.
Now there is no idea to return the air service with Belarus?
— Everything will depend on the situation in Belarus itself. Ukraine is a peaceful country, it is definitely interested in good relations with its neighbors. This applies not only to Belarus, but to all countries. But the relationship also depends on the second party, so that it also shares the values of Ukraine - the country where two revolutions took place, for which human freedom, freedom of speech, democracy were won with the blood and thousands of lives of our people.
When our Western partners talk about threats, they mention two things: a military threat from Russia and a threat of internal destabilization provoked by forces sponsored by some of our oligarchs. Before joining politics, when I was attacked, I always gave in, that's how I was brought up. And today, unfortunately, I can protect myself less than 2,5 years ago. You see what resistance there is - precisely because the reforms have become real. The corruption system that has existed for 30 years is resisting. Today, many politicians are only thinking about how to bite off a bigger bite, how to get a more profitable job. Instead of gathering, unite and start working together for the sake of the future of our country. The question is not criticism, we treat it adequately, we perceive many reasonable things and even implement them in life. But it is necessary to separate criticism and insults, fakes and true information. Therefore, I believe that the best answer will be a knockdown of the old system, a knockdown of corruption, a knockdown of what prevents the country from developing. We will definitely not be intimidated, we are people who entered the battlefield to win.
How do you explain that the people you used to work with are now your main critics and opponents?
- All these people are different, I have different attitudes towards them. I respect some of them, even in spite of their attitude towards me. Some of these people, having lost their positions, asked to be hired somewhere, and, having received a refusal, now appear on the screens and try to remind themselves of themselves and sell themselves. Someone is trying to take revenge for the fact that we did not allow their greedy and painful ambitions to be realized.
Over the past two years, a lot has been written about me, but no one has written that I am corrupt, that I took someone's company or something similar. And different things happened in these offices before our arrival. Therefore, I perceive all this as a positive assessment of what I do.
Do you have presidential ambitions?
- No. I believe that we now have the best president of all time. I always repeated that I came with him and I will leave with him.
How has the president changed during this time?
- We all change. But if we are talking about the changes that are being talked about on the Ukraina 24 channel, then this is not true. The president remained a decent, honest person. Of course, it became tougher, because every day they hear streams of mud - it's not easy. In a short time, he had to become a specialist in many areas, and, believe me, those who say that they are keeping him in a warm bath, do not know him or are deeply offended by something. He himself always makes decisions and digs into the truth in any matter.
You are often criticized for a weak personnel policy.
— We now live in an era of shortage of professionals. I think it's not just us. Therefore, we are looking for high-quality footage like precious stones, I do not regret spending time looking for them.
The announcement of suspicion of treason against Petro Poroshenko — how realistic is it that an arrest will be made? Why was the suspicion signed not by the Prosecutor General of Venediktova, but by her deputy? Will this not lead to an aggravation in society and new protests?
— It would be incorrect for me to comment on the actions of law enforcement agencies, and even more so on a possible court decision.
As for possible protests, I believe that every citizen has the right to a peaceful protest. And the state must protect this right. At the same time, it is unacceptable for someone to interfere with the actions of law enforcement officers or put pressure on the judicial system with the help of hired mass and oligarchic financing.
I am sure that the entire Ukrainian society is interested in putting an end to this matter and justice prevailed.
In May next year, the law on oligarchs will come into effect. Do you see risks both from the side of potential participants and the fact that random people will get there?
— I have to admit that communication according to the law on oligarchs is insufficient. It is very important to understand: this is not a law against someone, it is "for" the new rules. All countries went through it. In many countries, this is an already established system. We need developed antimonopoly legislation, we need a law on lobbying, we need to reform the work of the parliament, continue the administrative-territorial reform, deepen digitalization in all spheres, we need to bring order to certain markets, including energy, the field of mineral extraction, continue to reform the judicial system, customs, the tax office, the SBU, will strengthen the anti-corruption infrastructure. Developed countries took a long time to achieve this. Our law on oligarchs is a framework, a first step. And we will consider that it worked 100% if over time it turns out that there will be zero people in the register. This will mean that no one from big business buys deputies, ministers, judges or law enforcement officers and tries to influence state decisions.
At the same time, we will be as attentive as possible to the rights of all representatives of large business. The state will not be able to call a person an oligarch until he is officially included in this register, and there will be every reason for this.
Large and medium-sized businessmen must understand that it becomes more difficult every day to influence the state due to large-scale corruption. Guys, do business, become even richer, capitalize yourself and the country. This will give an opportunity to decide the most important things. First, our country will stop being labeled as corrupt and the oligarchs rule everything. Secondly, the people will start loving the rich.
I want to emphasize: nobody is going to collect anything, and nothing will be taken from anyone. We are only talking about honest and transparent rules for large and medium-sized businesses without the large-scale corruption that we still have today, to our great regret.
We want to eliminate injustice. It is important for us that a handful of people stop parasitizing state property, the state budget, and stop sucking all the juices out of the Ukrainian economy. It is important that large business builds new enterprises and creates jobs. Only in this way will we be able to radically increase the incomes of all our people, not a few selected billionaires. We need new fair rules to accelerate the development of Ukraine. This is what we strive for.
